Well put.

To the poster of this vent, I am very glad that you’re a genuinely good person, but sadly you are a minority in the realm of Christians.  If all/more Christians were as you are, then you’d be right in your conclusion.

Unfortunately, all too many Christians support the opposite of your own views & that is where there is a problem.  I certainly hope more Christians come to see things as you do.

Two things to say about this, which gets at the heart of the issue of generalization: number one, you can’t judge an individual completely by the organizations and affiliations they involve themselves with. This can’t be understated - don’t pigeonhole people. It sucks, because everybody is an individual. Number two: Society is going to do this anyway, as a shortcut, until they get to know you as a person. And if you choose to align yourself with a group of people whose values ostensibly bother you so deeply - then you can’t whine too loudly when people get the wrong idea about you. If you’re a klansman, maybe you don’t hate black people, but if you wear the hood, people will think you do. If you work in the IT industry, maybe you’re not nerdy and socially awkward, but you’d be the exception. Maybe you should align yourself with a group of people who share values a little closer to your own. If not, maybe you should spend your energy repudiating and being disgusted by the people in your own group who hold values that you find reprehensible, instead of bitching that you’re misunderstood.

First off, I am not a Christian, I do not believe in God. I am just unbiased.
I thought this was a great post. You put this well, and the problem is that most Christians are not like you. SaveOurSkyline had a great bundle of pointers, but if we were to truly think about this, we would realize that preaching these thoughts onto fellow Christians (especially those hardcore ones) would be a lost cause. Not only that, but it would be wrong. If you preach this upon other Christians than you are no better than them. You had the right ideal to voice yourself as a defense against a stereotype. By no means is it even logical that you should turn around and push your beliefs on others who don’t want to hear them.
As for Psydan’s post, same concept. Maybe you’re not a Neanderthal in your own eyes, but you’re as disgusting and annoying as every stereotypical Mormon that comes up to me on a Bike when I’m trying to walk into Wal-Mart. That said, remember that your truth is only true to you. We don’t all share the same opinions, which is what makes us individuals. I am willing to share my thoughts to those who listen, but preaching that God does not exist to a Christian who doesn’t ask for your beliefs is just stupid. So perhaps you are a Neanderthal. Open your mind.
Besides, if I’ve learned anything so far in this world, it’s nothing is impossible. I do not believe in God, but I do not deny his existence. To do so would be saying green doesn’t exist because you’re color blind. Sure it’s far fetched. You don’t have to believe it. But stop ragging on people who do, if for no other reason than that is foolish and childish.

Honestly, I admit, when I learn that someone is a devout Christian, I tend to see them in a different light. As a gay person, I’ve had many negative experiences with Christians who use their faith to attack me and keep me from enjoying the same civil liberties that others are guaranteed. I have found that many Christians have a very simplistic “black and white” view of the world.
Might I also add that I do not believe there is much discrimination in America against Christians. How exactly are you discriminated against? Please don’t list “Not being able to have the 10 Commandments posted on the wall in courtrooms” or things like that. A good majority of Americans identify as Christian, so who’s doing all the discriminating?

“Honestly, I admit, when I learn that someone is a devout Christian, I tend to see them in a different light. As a gay person, I’ve had many negative experiences with Christians who use their faith to attack me and keep me from enjoying the same civil liberties that others are guaranteed. I have found that many Christians have a very simplistic “black and white” view of the world.”

And there are a great number of Christians who defend your cause. I don’t believe religious belief should dictate our laws. Whether or not it is a sin for you and your partner to be together is irrelevant, the government is not an agent of the church.

Mind, there are also a great number of gay Christians. Don’t Judge all by the actions of some.

“Might I also add that I do not believe there is much discrimination in America against Christians. How exactly are you discriminated against? Please don’t list “Not being able to have the 10 Commandments posted on the wall in courtrooms” or things like that. A good majority of Americans identify as Christian, so who’s doing all the discriminating?”

The very assumption that i am talking about something along the lines of the ten commandments or prayer in schools is itself a stereotype. You assume we all think the same, act the same, and care about the same causes. I couldn’t care less if the ten commandments were posted at the courts. let people with too much time on their hands worry about that.

I am sick of being treated like an idiot because of my religious beliefs. Im tired of mentioning im a christian, and getting ranted at about Bush, Gay bashing and Abortion bombers, none of which I support. I’m tired of being blamed for all the world’s problems.

You, in your attempt to prove i am merely whining have proven my point. You have stuck me in a box, because of a stereotype ingrained in yourself.

One last comment about GLBT issues. A dear friend of mine is Transsexual. My father’s best friend of 20 plus years is gay. He believes homosexuality to be a sin, but he loves him and defends him when needed. I personally do not know what i believe concerning the morality of GLBT lifestyles, but i follow my master’s example, of loving all men, with no judgement as I myself am a sinner.

We are not all carbon copies of each other.

Erick, I think most of us aren’t justifying hatred.  We’re weary of dealing with hatred from all of the Christians who are, it seems, nothing like the Christians on VentPark.  The Christians that we experience in our every day lives are clearly not like you.  Personally, I left the religion because I couldn’t abide the way I saw all of the Christians I knew treating anyone who wasn’t EXACTLY like them.  It is my sincere hope that more Christians take on more Christ-like mentalities instead.

Hi, non-Neanderthal, from yet another Christian with similar convictions to yours.

One the one hand, because the power we Christians have had in the States and  elsewhere, and the abuse and intolerance that have resulted from having that power, we should be willing in part to swallow our pride and accept some of the backlash we are feeling now. And I can relate to people like BurningTongue who have been pushed around by many Christians. I work in Mexico and am married to a hispanic, and I have heard fellow Christians say many shameful things about Mexicans and hispanics with an air of holy authority.

Having said that, I can totally relate to your feelings, and have written briefly on the same subject at http://www.giffmex.org/blog/?cat=15.

It’s especially hypocritical and ironic that the very people who champions of anti-racism (amen!) and anti-sexism (amen!) and who think that society should be as tolerant and inclusive as possible (amen!) and complain about Christians being intolerant (fair enough, as I said above) then turn around and make many intolerant statements when doing so. I don’t mind people disagreeing openly with my beliefs. I don’t mind them pointing to logical and ethic inconsistencies they see or perceive in Christians or the Christian religion. I don’t mind them wanting others to become like them. But to resort to mockery and insults (see psydan above, and Sam Harris and others) or to target religion or a specific religion and do whatever they can to eliminate it is not my idea of tolerance and open-mindedness. It is to become the very thing they dislike about us. And by becoming that, as you point out well, they fail to distinguish between the belligerent type of Christian and the kinds of Christians that have posted in this thread.

So, I add my amen to your vent as others have above.

Thanks for that, modivarch. I hadn’t thought of such profanity in quite that way, but it’s true. Disrespect for the Christian religion is so ingrained in society that people are mocking it in this way without even realizing it. And it gets on our nerves the way the disrespectful phrase  “That’s so gay” gets on a homosexual’s nerves.

Hi Esotericas. The fact that people don’t mean anything by it, in English, French or any other language, doesn’t make it any less offensive in my book. If anything, the fact that it is done so thoughtlessly increases the offense. Out of sensitivity to gays I wouldn’t let my kids use “That’s so gay”, even though I believe homosexual practice is wrong for Christians. But others have no problem using language insensitive to Christians.

Something similar happens on TV. No one makes fun of homosexuals in the media today (compared with the 80s when every movie had a ‘zany’ gay character and ridiculed that character). Everyone is afraid of being labeled homophobic. But Jesus and Christians are regularly held up for ridicule and contempt. Either everyone should be a fair target for satire, or we should respectfully refrain from targeting anyone, or the same rules should apply to all.

Q: “You say that no one makes fun of gays in the media anymore… excuse me, do we live in the same country?”

A: We probably don’t, BurningTongues. I live in Mexico City, though I’m originally from Michigan. To be honest, though, I don’t watch any TV and I see few movies, so I admit freely that I’m not an expert on the media.

What I mean is that in movies in the 80s gays were portrayed as whining, prissy, over-the-top lunatics and were included for comic relief. Skinny African-American guys in dresses screaming at the top of their lungs in panic type of stuff, in contrast to the cool, straight hero. Since the (late?) 90s whenever I’ve seen a gay character in movies and sitcoms it’s been to teach straights not to be homophobes, or the character is better than the other characters, even if it’s in stereotypical areas such as interior design or fashion or somesuch. They are presented as someone you ought to respect. You could not have made Brokeback Mountain in the 80s and you couldn’t film a movie with those 80s flamboyant buffoons today.

By contrast, it was a total shock in the 80s to see the Bad Religion album cover with a cross, crossed out by the “do not” sign. Today it is quite common for Jesus to be mocked as he is in South Park and so many other shows.

No, we are not denied housing and many of the items you mentioned. I appreciate your bringing those up, as they are a sad commentary on how people discriminate against gays. I would disagree with you about the job issue, depending on the job and the region, but the other items on your list are a good reminder of how far we have to go.

But to be fair I don’t remember the word discrimination being used in the posts above, and I think the original post was more about verbal abuse on the Internet and movies/TV and from authors like Dawkins, and my comments were an attempt to respond to that. And in that regard I still have to insist that homosexuality is an issue people treat with kid gloves, so as not to be labeled as intolerant, homophobic or politically incorrect, whereas anti-Christianity is an issue where one can vent without restraint and be treated like a hero, not a jerk. And when the word ‘intolerant’ is bandied about by such intolerant people, it is especially ironic, because of their insistence upon tolerance for other groups.

Getting back, then, to the goal of the original post, then, I just wrote a post on my own blog, inspired in part thinking of this and another recent Ventpark post, as well as past experiences. It is a modest bill of rights for religious debate on the Internet. http://www.giffmex.org/blog/?p=80 . I hope this is helpful for some.

In all fairness, I was not comparing the plight of Christians and gays in this country. I realize that we do indeed have it better.

However i would like to point out that just because many Christians in this country do unfairly whine about being persecuted, in many parts of the world, we are indeed persecuted. We are tortured, we are killed, we are degredated, our wives raped and our priests publicly executed. It does happen. In those same countries, Homosexuals face the same fate, so we do have more in common than you may think.

However, as others have pointed out, just because we have it better than homosexuals in this country, does not mean that what we face is right. Both peoples need to be treated better. Everyone deserves basic human respect.

welll…in a very real sense, if you believe in evolution then you WERE a nederthal as some point in time *laffin*

I guess if we’re talking about evolution, I’m descended from a newt. I’m glad I got better.